nEedles and pIns iNTeRVieWs
I conducted interviews with some folks who were connected to the punk scene in the beginning, which helped to add some reality to the book itself, as well as hear some personal tales of how it was in the heat of the moment. These are recreated here.
Francis Taylor, Roadie with the Buzzcocks:
How did you discover punk? What did it mean to you when you first heard it? Was it a moment of revelation, or was it a something that you slowly became aware of, that was later labeled as ‘punk’?
I was always interested in music. Early on it was all Motown and Stax, then along came Bowie and Roxy Music and shook that up. I dipped a toe in prog rock and hippy stuff, but it was a bit arty and heartless for me. I met a bunch of guys who were very into sixties garage music, that was the only music known as punk rock at the time. In '75 I went to University on a course I got through clearing, I wasn't particularly interested but it did give me a chance to see a lot of bands cheap. I saw Beefheart and John Cale along with Toots and the Maytals and Desmond Dekker and the Aces plus lots of other stuff. Friends there read the music papers, so I did see stuff about people causing bother at Pistol's gigs, but it didn't really register because there was no product to listen to.
At the end of my first year I came back to Manchester. My mates had just seen the Pistols at the Lesser Free Trade Hall and they told me about a band that played with them and were doing a gig soon. So we went to see Buzzcocks at the Holdsworth Hall. It was a shed of a place, no booze, just fruit juice but we had already been to the pub for a few. There were people there who looked very different to anything I had seen. Outrageous and somewhat dark and intimidating. Then Buzzcocks took the stage and BLAM that was it! They were amazing, the noise was raw, the lyrics vaguely discernible, but they were definitely swearing in among the words. Singing about what?... Boredom?... Orgasms?... Taking a line?... Suddenly they went into a tune I thought I knew... The Troggs?... I can't control myself?... Yeah that's what it is... but it isn't. It's like the tune was chewed up and those aren't the right lyrics... But... It doesn't fucking matter. This is brilliant... This is mine... They are me! After they left the stage a band called Eater came on. They were a bunch of kids making a racket, it was fun... But it wasn't what I heard just before... I wanted the other mob back.....
After that I made my mind up I wasn't going back to Uni. I just wanted more of that night. For the remainder of '76 I went to any gig that was vaguely 'punk' - there weren't many. Buzzcocks were THE one for me and I went whenever they were on. Then the Pistols did Grundy and it all went mental. I saw the Anarchy tour in Manchester with the Pistols, Clash, Heartbreakers and Buzzcocks (after the Damned got the boot), that was the best night ever. All those bands spoke to me, some of them spoke for me. By now we were 'punks' – that doesn't mean we all wore make-up or safety pins or lots of leather, the Manchester scene was a bit more inclusive than that – but we were different enough to get noticed.
Were there conscious decisions that you made to be more involved in what was going on, or were you just absorbed into the chaos, and how did this happen?
The only conscious decision was that I wasn't going back to University. By late '76 I was going to Manchester's first punk club, The Ranch, on a regular basis. As time passed I was looking for a job, but I was unemployed so I had lots of time. I had made friends with a lot of people and among them were Paul Morley and Kevin Cummins. They went to a lot of gigs and Kevin had a car, so I ended up tagging along with them chipping in for a share of the petrol. That was no problem because we almost always got into the gigs for free.
Kevin also used to sell 10x8 prints of photos, so I used to help him print hundreds of photos in a little darkroom over a shop. These were commercial shots not punk stuff, things like Abba, Roxy, Bowie, Rod Stewart, sometimes we would be at it all night. I still have some of the punk stuff that he shot at the time.
By mid '77 Buzzcocks' star was in the ascendancy. They were doing more gigs, I was still tagging along with Kev and Paul to as many as I could. Then Buzzcocks' manager, Richard Boon, asked me if I fancied giving them a lift loading and unloading the gear. I could travel in the truck and see the band at every gig. He explained that they didn't have enough cash to pay me... well... I almost grabbed his arm off. After I did the first couple of gigs, Richard gave me £5... Doesn't sound like much but I used to get £13 a week dole money. From there I spent almost three years working for them (fitting a few other bands in along the way) and was in and out of the music business until about 1985.
Did punk make anything more difficult for you?
Not particularly. I wasn't what you would call an outrageous punk, so I didn't get picked on for the way I looked as much as some did. I did get into a few fights and got couple of good hidings coming home from gigs or clubs late at night, but on the whole it was all pretty positive.
How did punk help you?
It gave me a career at least for a while. I was a pretty directionless youth. I didn't happen to life, it happened to me. To a large extent I am still that way. Working for bands took me all over the UK and eventually to Europe and the States, that probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Is there anything embarrassing about the times, that you did or witnessed?
Probably the most embarrassing thing generally was seeing some bands trying to “outpunk” one another to get noticed. The A&R men were everywhere looking for punk's “next big thing”. Some were only too ready to jump on the bandwagon.
Personally some of the people I knew could be very anti-social characters and would have been so with or without punk. On one occasion, on a trip to the Roxy, we had been traipsing around Covent Garden looking for a place to get some grub for ages. We were being refused at every turn when a little Italian cafe let us in. It was what the Yanks would call a “Mom'n'Pop” affair. Y'know the kind of place, family run, good substantial food in large portions and reasonable prices. After gratefully gulping down the nosh with loads of cups of tea we were settling the bill when it was pointed out to me that one of our number was taking a piss on the floor under the table. It was so unnecessary. Everyone was embarrassed and we had to beat a hasty retreat. We all berated the protagonist but he was all, “Yeah... So what, fuck 'em”... dickhead!
Who do you rate and who do you hate?
I don't 'hate' anyone for making music regardless of how crap it might be. I saw loads of bands and enjoyed most of them. You have to remember it was all about live music. You could easily get carried away with a band at a gig and never dream of buying their records. Sometimes you heard them on record afterwards and didn't even like it! But probably the stand outs are some of the originals, Pistols, Clash, Buzzcocks, Heartbreakers, Slits, Subway Sect even The Damned, you wouldn't miss an opportunity to see any of them, even if you had to travel.
Which bands are sorely under-rated or unfairly neglected?
It's hard to say now, because so many people talk about “the legends” of punk. Looking back most of those bands had nothing that could be called “success” on anything other than a critical level. It wasn't like today where even minor “celebrities” suddenly seem to have a huge PR machine making them a fortune. The bands that I loved never got even minimal success were bands like The Slits, Subway Sect, The Prefects, Alternative TV.
Keep in mind, most music fans have heard of Joy Division today, but in '79 they weren't as big as everyone might believe now, whether they would have been hugely famous is a question no-one can answer truthfully.
Is there anything that you’d like to have changed, or that you’d have liked punk bands or music to achieve that it didn’t, or at least hasn't yet?
It don't think it was about “achievement” in any recognisable terms. It was about achievement on our own terms, just bucking the trend and saying “no” to everything that society expected from us. Making a noise and not just “going quietly into that dark night”. So many people did something different to what was expected of them. Even if they now appear to have slipped back into society, they are still there quietly seething in the background.
Do you still consider yourself to be a punk, or did you ever agree to that label in the first place? Is punk dead? If not, what is it?
I suppose I did think of myself as a punk, but that was more of a label from outside than within. I still hold the values that I held then so I haven't changed... but “punk” probably has.
What is labeled punk today has little meaning to me, it perceived now as an image on a “Postcard from London”, even though you won't see many punks on the King's road in full regalia these days.
I suppose we're at the stage Teddy Boys were at back in the seventies. There are some old diehards clinging to the memories and some newcomers referencing the music and the styles and trying to move it on a bit. Just occasionally something good comes out of it.
I don't particularly want to see 50 or 60 year old men performing their hits, that's part of what we were against, at least musically. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to have to get a “proper job”, but, what is in my memory is too precious to ruin it with images of fat old men singing for their supper – or pension funds.
What’s your greatest punk moment?
Working for The Slits on The ”Sort it Out” tour with The Clash in '78. Almost two months of pure heaven. This was the tour that “Rude Boy” was filmed on and Ray Gange was quite a laugh!
What’s your worst punk moment?
We had just finished a gig in Bath and were walking back to our hotel when a car mounted the pavement and tried to mow us down! We all scattered and leaped over hedges and railings. It just so happened a police car was coming in the opposite direction threw a U-ey and the car raced off with the cops in pursuit. We never did find out what came of it.
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Roland Gent – Punk Aficionado and Presenter of Radio Salford’s Punk Show:
How did you first become aware of punk?
I kept hearing about this terrible music in the papers, but you couldn't really hear it on daytime Radio One, then my mate across the road who was allowed by his mam to buy records played me this horrible stuff by the Sex Pistols.
What made you want to be a punk?
It just was and is the most exciting thing musically ever, same for everyone - it's the first thing you hear that really excites you. Rap didn't really do it for me. House music had loads of energy, but sadly no politics, no ideas. Heavy metal usually makes me laugh.
How has punk helped you out over the years?
Has it helped me out? Well, it made me a lot of friends.
How has punk hindered you over the years?
Hindered me? Well, I can recall when just having spikey hair was enough to get death threats walking down the street. These days the bank manager seems to have a mohican, as do half the footballers, although I can't remember being shocked in the mid 70s when Wolves footballer Derek Dougan had a mohawk.
Was there any time when you lost faith in punk or punk lost faith in you?
Lost it with punk? That's down to what you are doing as a person, but probably late 80s, Napalm Death and all that extreme thrasher stuff was just a boring one trick pony. At that time techno and house was more exciting.
Do punks have heroes? If not, who or what are your influences?
Heroes? Ironically, I always liked The Stranglers.
What were your greatest gig moments?
Best worst gigs? G.B.H. and U.K. Subs at Nottingham Boathouse, Husker Du International 2 Manchester. No FX at Leicester Charlotte, Stranglers Sheffield City Hall and millions more!
What were your greatest punk moments?
Best moments went to the poll tax riots it was all the punks behind it, off licences and guitar shops got robbed - everything else was left alone.
Is punk still relevant today? What’s going to happen to punk in the years to come?
To answer where does it go? Wherever people want it to go.
Listen to Roland on Salford City Radio, 94.4FM Tuesdays 8pm-9pm! Previous shows can be found here!
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Jim Park, original drummer and instigator of The Exploited talks of how it all began:
Here goes....
In 1979, I put an advert on the notice board of the Virgin Record Shop in Frederick Street in Edinburgh. I'd played in a few hippy-ish bands up till this point, but was now fully into the punk scene.
I have to admit I was a bit slow to pick up on punk as a genre, but I was blown away by the energy and menace of the Sex Pistols performing Pretty Vacant on "Top Of The Pops", and I was IN.
Sex Pistols, Clash, Stranglers, Ramones were my top bands at the time.
I wore the drainpipe jeans and a leather jacket, but my punk credentials were somewhat compromised by having permed hair, and just beginning an Economics degree at University.
I was also pretty much a middle-class kid.
There was no getting away from it.
Wattie Buchan answered my ad, the following week, and we met up.
Wattie had impeccable punk credentials...the look, the hairstyle, and had just left the army to form a band, and was now ready to stick it to The Man.
We played some early gigs at place like the Triangle Club in Pilton, and youth clubs in Wester Hailes.
Musically, we were pretty rough, and there were a few tuning issues with the guitars if I remember rightly.
In spite of all this, it became clear to me that Wattie would ensure the success of the band.
To the kids in Wester Hailes he was a god-like figure, and his charisma as a front men compensated for the roughness of the playing.
One of the bigger gigs I played for them was at the YMCA in Edinburgh. On the day of the gig, Sid Vicious was pronounced dead in New York. This was doubly unfortunate, as one of our songs "Sid", had the chorus of "Sid Vicious Is innocent, Sidney must go free" (he had been arrested on suspicion of the murder of Nancy Spungen). I was impressed that Wattie changed the lyrics to "Sid Vicious was innocent, Sidney RIP" in time for the evening show. It was a great gig, the venue was packed, there was gob everywhere...
At the time I took this as a sign of the punk credibility of the band, although I was also glad that as a drummer at the back of the band, I was just out of range of the spittle projectiles.
I must have done about 15-20 gigs with them, each one its own little adventure.
Unfortunately, as I was at University through in Stirling, it became more and more difficult to continue with the band as i couldn't make the time commitment.
It was always fun.
The next time I saw the guys was when they appeared on "Top Of The Pops" playing Dead Cities.
I'd have loved to have done that show, but I couldn't help thinking that at some point, some record company exec would have said to them "You've got a middle class economics student with permed hair playing drums...we're not sure about him".
It's generally better to jump before you get pushed... but hey... great memories.
Find Jim's latest exploits at http://www.toecurler.com
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Francis Taylor, Roadie with the Buzzcocks:
How did you discover punk? What did it mean to you when you first heard it? Was it a moment of revelation, or was it a something that you slowly became aware of, that was later labeled as ‘punk’?
I was always interested in music. Early on it was all Motown and Stax, then along came Bowie and Roxy Music and shook that up. I dipped a toe in prog rock and hippy stuff, but it was a bit arty and heartless for me. I met a bunch of guys who were very into sixties garage music, that was the only music known as punk rock at the time. In '75 I went to University on a course I got through clearing, I wasn't particularly interested but it did give me a chance to see a lot of bands cheap. I saw Beefheart and John Cale along with Toots and the Maytals and Desmond Dekker and the Aces plus lots of other stuff. Friends there read the music papers, so I did see stuff about people causing bother at Pistol's gigs, but it didn't really register because there was no product to listen to.
At the end of my first year I came back to Manchester. My mates had just seen the Pistols at the Lesser Free Trade Hall and they told me about a band that played with them and were doing a gig soon. So we went to see Buzzcocks at the Holdsworth Hall. It was a shed of a place, no booze, just fruit juice but we had already been to the pub for a few. There were people there who looked very different to anything I had seen. Outrageous and somewhat dark and intimidating. Then Buzzcocks took the stage and BLAM that was it! They were amazing, the noise was raw, the lyrics vaguely discernible, but they were definitely swearing in among the words. Singing about what?... Boredom?... Orgasms?... Taking a line?... Suddenly they went into a tune I thought I knew... The Troggs?... I can't control myself?... Yeah that's what it is... but it isn't. It's like the tune was chewed up and those aren't the right lyrics... But... It doesn't fucking matter. This is brilliant... This is mine... They are me! After they left the stage a band called Eater came on. They were a bunch of kids making a racket, it was fun... But it wasn't what I heard just before... I wanted the other mob back.....
After that I made my mind up I wasn't going back to Uni. I just wanted more of that night. For the remainder of '76 I went to any gig that was vaguely 'punk' - there weren't many. Buzzcocks were THE one for me and I went whenever they were on. Then the Pistols did Grundy and it all went mental. I saw the Anarchy tour in Manchester with the Pistols, Clash, Heartbreakers and Buzzcocks (after the Damned got the boot), that was the best night ever. All those bands spoke to me, some of them spoke for me. By now we were 'punks' – that doesn't mean we all wore make-up or safety pins or lots of leather, the Manchester scene was a bit more inclusive than that – but we were different enough to get noticed.
Were there conscious decisions that you made to be more involved in what was going on, or were you just absorbed into the chaos, and how did this happen?
The only conscious decision was that I wasn't going back to University. By late '76 I was going to Manchester's first punk club, The Ranch, on a regular basis. As time passed I was looking for a job, but I was unemployed so I had lots of time. I had made friends with a lot of people and among them were Paul Morley and Kevin Cummins. They went to a lot of gigs and Kevin had a car, so I ended up tagging along with them chipping in for a share of the petrol. That was no problem because we almost always got into the gigs for free.
Kevin also used to sell 10x8 prints of photos, so I used to help him print hundreds of photos in a little darkroom over a shop. These were commercial shots not punk stuff, things like Abba, Roxy, Bowie, Rod Stewart, sometimes we would be at it all night. I still have some of the punk stuff that he shot at the time.
By mid '77 Buzzcocks' star was in the ascendancy. They were doing more gigs, I was still tagging along with Kev and Paul to as many as I could. Then Buzzcocks' manager, Richard Boon, asked me if I fancied giving them a lift loading and unloading the gear. I could travel in the truck and see the band at every gig. He explained that they didn't have enough cash to pay me... well... I almost grabbed his arm off. After I did the first couple of gigs, Richard gave me £5... Doesn't sound like much but I used to get £13 a week dole money. From there I spent almost three years working for them (fitting a few other bands in along the way) and was in and out of the music business until about 1985.
Did punk make anything more difficult for you?
Not particularly. I wasn't what you would call an outrageous punk, so I didn't get picked on for the way I looked as much as some did. I did get into a few fights and got couple of good hidings coming home from gigs or clubs late at night, but on the whole it was all pretty positive.
How did punk help you?
It gave me a career at least for a while. I was a pretty directionless youth. I didn't happen to life, it happened to me. To a large extent I am still that way. Working for bands took me all over the UK and eventually to Europe and the States, that probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
Is there anything embarrassing about the times, that you did or witnessed?
Probably the most embarrassing thing generally was seeing some bands trying to “outpunk” one another to get noticed. The A&R men were everywhere looking for punk's “next big thing”. Some were only too ready to jump on the bandwagon.
Personally some of the people I knew could be very anti-social characters and would have been so with or without punk. On one occasion, on a trip to the Roxy, we had been traipsing around Covent Garden looking for a place to get some grub for ages. We were being refused at every turn when a little Italian cafe let us in. It was what the Yanks would call a “Mom'n'Pop” affair. Y'know the kind of place, family run, good substantial food in large portions and reasonable prices. After gratefully gulping down the nosh with loads of cups of tea we were settling the bill when it was pointed out to me that one of our number was taking a piss on the floor under the table. It was so unnecessary. Everyone was embarrassed and we had to beat a hasty retreat. We all berated the protagonist but he was all, “Yeah... So what, fuck 'em”... dickhead!
Who do you rate and who do you hate?
I don't 'hate' anyone for making music regardless of how crap it might be. I saw loads of bands and enjoyed most of them. You have to remember it was all about live music. You could easily get carried away with a band at a gig and never dream of buying their records. Sometimes you heard them on record afterwards and didn't even like it! But probably the stand outs are some of the originals, Pistols, Clash, Buzzcocks, Heartbreakers, Slits, Subway Sect even The Damned, you wouldn't miss an opportunity to see any of them, even if you had to travel.
Which bands are sorely under-rated or unfairly neglected?
It's hard to say now, because so many people talk about “the legends” of punk. Looking back most of those bands had nothing that could be called “success” on anything other than a critical level. It wasn't like today where even minor “celebrities” suddenly seem to have a huge PR machine making them a fortune. The bands that I loved never got even minimal success were bands like The Slits, Subway Sect, The Prefects, Alternative TV.
Keep in mind, most music fans have heard of Joy Division today, but in '79 they weren't as big as everyone might believe now, whether they would have been hugely famous is a question no-one can answer truthfully.
Is there anything that you’d like to have changed, or that you’d have liked punk bands or music to achieve that it didn’t, or at least hasn't yet?
It don't think it was about “achievement” in any recognisable terms. It was about achievement on our own terms, just bucking the trend and saying “no” to everything that society expected from us. Making a noise and not just “going quietly into that dark night”. So many people did something different to what was expected of them. Even if they now appear to have slipped back into society, they are still there quietly seething in the background.
Do you still consider yourself to be a punk, or did you ever agree to that label in the first place? Is punk dead? If not, what is it?
I suppose I did think of myself as a punk, but that was more of a label from outside than within. I still hold the values that I held then so I haven't changed... but “punk” probably has.
What is labeled punk today has little meaning to me, it perceived now as an image on a “Postcard from London”, even though you won't see many punks on the King's road in full regalia these days.
I suppose we're at the stage Teddy Boys were at back in the seventies. There are some old diehards clinging to the memories and some newcomers referencing the music and the styles and trying to move it on a bit. Just occasionally something good comes out of it.
I don't particularly want to see 50 or 60 year old men performing their hits, that's part of what we were against, at least musically. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to have to get a “proper job”, but, what is in my memory is too precious to ruin it with images of fat old men singing for their supper – or pension funds.
What’s your greatest punk moment?
Working for The Slits on The ”Sort it Out” tour with The Clash in '78. Almost two months of pure heaven. This was the tour that “Rude Boy” was filmed on and Ray Gange was quite a laugh!
What’s your worst punk moment?
We had just finished a gig in Bath and were walking back to our hotel when a car mounted the pavement and tried to mow us down! We all scattered and leaped over hedges and railings. It just so happened a police car was coming in the opposite direction threw a U-ey and the car raced off with the cops in pursuit. We never did find out what came of it.
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Roland Gent – Punk Aficionado and Presenter of Radio Salford’s Punk Show:
How did you first become aware of punk?
I kept hearing about this terrible music in the papers, but you couldn't really hear it on daytime Radio One, then my mate across the road who was allowed by his mam to buy records played me this horrible stuff by the Sex Pistols.
What made you want to be a punk?
It just was and is the most exciting thing musically ever, same for everyone - it's the first thing you hear that really excites you. Rap didn't really do it for me. House music had loads of energy, but sadly no politics, no ideas. Heavy metal usually makes me laugh.
How has punk helped you out over the years?
Has it helped me out? Well, it made me a lot of friends.
How has punk hindered you over the years?
Hindered me? Well, I can recall when just having spikey hair was enough to get death threats walking down the street. These days the bank manager seems to have a mohican, as do half the footballers, although I can't remember being shocked in the mid 70s when Wolves footballer Derek Dougan had a mohawk.
Was there any time when you lost faith in punk or punk lost faith in you?
Lost it with punk? That's down to what you are doing as a person, but probably late 80s, Napalm Death and all that extreme thrasher stuff was just a boring one trick pony. At that time techno and house was more exciting.
Do punks have heroes? If not, who or what are your influences?
Heroes? Ironically, I always liked The Stranglers.
What were your greatest gig moments?
Best worst gigs? G.B.H. and U.K. Subs at Nottingham Boathouse, Husker Du International 2 Manchester. No FX at Leicester Charlotte, Stranglers Sheffield City Hall and millions more!
What were your greatest punk moments?
Best moments went to the poll tax riots it was all the punks behind it, off licences and guitar shops got robbed - everything else was left alone.
Is punk still relevant today? What’s going to happen to punk in the years to come?
To answer where does it go? Wherever people want it to go.
Listen to Roland on Salford City Radio, 94.4FM Tuesdays 8pm-9pm! Previous shows can be found here!
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Jim Park, original drummer and instigator of The Exploited talks of how it all began:
Here goes....
In 1979, I put an advert on the notice board of the Virgin Record Shop in Frederick Street in Edinburgh. I'd played in a few hippy-ish bands up till this point, but was now fully into the punk scene.
I have to admit I was a bit slow to pick up on punk as a genre, but I was blown away by the energy and menace of the Sex Pistols performing Pretty Vacant on "Top Of The Pops", and I was IN.
Sex Pistols, Clash, Stranglers, Ramones were my top bands at the time.
I wore the drainpipe jeans and a leather jacket, but my punk credentials were somewhat compromised by having permed hair, and just beginning an Economics degree at University.
I was also pretty much a middle-class kid.
There was no getting away from it.
Wattie Buchan answered my ad, the following week, and we met up.
Wattie had impeccable punk credentials...the look, the hairstyle, and had just left the army to form a band, and was now ready to stick it to The Man.
We played some early gigs at place like the Triangle Club in Pilton, and youth clubs in Wester Hailes.
Musically, we were pretty rough, and there were a few tuning issues with the guitars if I remember rightly.
In spite of all this, it became clear to me that Wattie would ensure the success of the band.
To the kids in Wester Hailes he was a god-like figure, and his charisma as a front men compensated for the roughness of the playing.
One of the bigger gigs I played for them was at the YMCA in Edinburgh. On the day of the gig, Sid Vicious was pronounced dead in New York. This was doubly unfortunate, as one of our songs "Sid", had the chorus of "Sid Vicious Is innocent, Sidney must go free" (he had been arrested on suspicion of the murder of Nancy Spungen). I was impressed that Wattie changed the lyrics to "Sid Vicious was innocent, Sidney RIP" in time for the evening show. It was a great gig, the venue was packed, there was gob everywhere...
At the time I took this as a sign of the punk credibility of the band, although I was also glad that as a drummer at the back of the band, I was just out of range of the spittle projectiles.
I must have done about 15-20 gigs with them, each one its own little adventure.
Unfortunately, as I was at University through in Stirling, it became more and more difficult to continue with the band as i couldn't make the time commitment.
It was always fun.
The next time I saw the guys was when they appeared on "Top Of The Pops" playing Dead Cities.
I'd have loved to have done that show, but I couldn't help thinking that at some point, some record company exec would have said to them "You've got a middle class economics student with permed hair playing drums...we're not sure about him".
It's generally better to jump before you get pushed... but hey... great memories.
Find Jim's latest exploits at http://www.toecurler.com
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Remembrances and half-remembrances of Mark Crutchley's punk days past:
What was your first meeting with what became known as punk?
It was while I was at Manchester University. I was there from ’75-’78, so that covers the key era. At the end of ’76, or it might’ve been ’75, I went to the faculty of architects who had a big Christmas Ball, and a group of half a dozen of us got in. There was a band playing called Slaughter and The Dogs, and five out of six of us thought they were utterly dreadful, because they were completely different. At the time, for a bit of background, I was listening to Genesis and Steely Dan, things like that, so it was very musical, etc, this lot was a bit of a thrash, so it was totally different.
That was the first live experience of punk, and I can’t say it made me think, “Wow, this is brilliant!” Slaughter and The Dogs had a couple of vaguely successful records, but were never very big. It’s difficult to know in hindsight whether they were actually rubbish or if what they were doing was so alien to what I was used to.
It’s a fine line between clever and stupid.
Yeah. I can remember, if you like, my change of tune coming around about the time of being back home during a break, when The Jam released In The City and thinking, “That is brilliant. I really like that!” I suppose that’s the thing I remember thinking. The next term, there was a place in Manchester called The Electric Circus, where all of the punk bands played and fairly soon after that I remember going to see The Stranglers play. I’d heard Grip, which was out about the same time as In The City, and liked both songs. I’d been going to a steady stream of gigs at the Students Union, so I was in the habit, and there were a couple of us who went to pretty much every gig, so it was quite natural for us to go and investigate The Stranglers. That was the first punk gig that I chose to go to.
What did it sound like?
The Stranglers were brilliant live. It was completely new, a complete contrast to anything I'd been to before because it wasn't, looking back, middle of the road soft rock. It was a completely unique audience as well. There were a few students there, but it was basically a rough end of Manchester audience. I remember really liking that.
One of the things that sticks in my memory was, "Why am I walking so weirdly?" looking down at my foot and realising I'd got this humungous lump of glue stuck to the bottom of my shoe. The habit of sniffing glue was a cheap way of getting high, so somebody had spilt their can of Evostick onto the floor and I'd got stuck to it. "Ah, that's why I'm limping!" Very strange.
How did you get more involved?
I started buying the albums, going to more gigs. I went to see The Jam a couple of times. The first one was at Salford Uni, the other a bigger event, I think at The Apollo. It's probably fair to say that The Jam were my favourite. The first occasion was also where I first saw The Clash, when they were touring the first album. That show wasn't what I expected. I was in the 10th row, and everybody just trashed the first 20 rows of seats. They were only little wooden seats, they were jumping on them so they could smash them so that they'd got more room to move around. That was an interesting experience.
Did you participate in those antics?
I did a bit of leaping, but not a lot of trashing.
Did you have the punk 'look'?
No, I didn't. I never cut my hair short. I had quite long hair in those days, so I never adopted a punk 'look', even though by that stage most of what I was listening to would be categorized as punk, or new wave. It never really occurred to me to do it. For me it was all about listening to the music and going to the gigs, rather than for a lot of people it was a lifestyle thing. For me it wasn't a lifestyle thing. I was a university student studying economics, planning on getting a job at the end of the process. It was nothing to do with, "I'm a dead end kid, I'm never gonna get a job, it doesn't matter what I look like," or anything.
Did you get in any trouble with the punks who dressed in that style?
No, we didn't. There was no hostility, I suspect the hardcore punks you see on all the clips actually were a minority of the people who went to see bands. The Apollo was quite a big venue, I don't have any memory of it being masses and masses of punks. There was a punk contingent, and a contingent of people like me who liked punk, went to the gigs, but didn't look punk.
The Electric Circus was different because that was a much smaller venue. It was more like 80% of people there looked like punks, were already living the punk lifestyle. We were very much the odd ones out! There were different looks, anyway.
So how did The Clash affect you?
The Clash gig was fascinating. They were much more high energy than The Stranglers, much rawer. They actually moved about and put on a show, while The Stranglers just stood there.
What other gigs did you goto next?
I can't remember where the next Clash gig was, I think the Free Trade Hall. Either there or The Palace, it was a bigger gig. The venues had got security in by this time and realised that if you're going to have a punk gig in a seated venue - get proper security. Nowadays they've got barriers and systems worked out, gaps between the audience and the stage. You didn't have that then, you just had: Stage - Band. Literally leaning over the edge of the stage. It was much more close-up. The stages weren't that high, The Apollo was, but not The Electric Circus, so you were really close up to the people you were going to see, within reach of the band.
One thing that strikes me now is that if you didn't see the first round of gigs, by the second round they were all in much bigger venues. It took off very quickly. The first Jam gig was at Salford University, the second one at the Free Trade Hall, a much bigger venue.
How did things change?
You stepped up by going to The Apollo. They were almost immediately taken out of the intimacy, out of the small venues where punk started. Bands leapt away from that very quickly.
Did bands deliberately try to connect with the audience when they played?
I think that they tried to connect ith an audience, certainly better than the kinds of bands that'd gone before them. The second time I saw The Clash, they were touring the second album, they were big by then, and there were a number of venues that were closed off to punk. The grass roots thing did die away relatively quickly and the likes of The Clash, Jam and Stranglers went on to be superstar big bands filling big arenas, and everybody else just got left behind. They were there for a little while after, but eventually the whole thing changed. By the end of the '70s, 1980, you've got bands like Joy Division and other bands coming along, doing other things. Siouxsie and The Banshees was slightly later on. I saw her, she was doing interesting things.
Were there any bands that you now think, "I wonder whatever happened to them?"
I can't remember any. I can remember liking The Ruts, they had a couple of very good singles, got a strong suspicion that their singer killed himself, which was the end of them. There was an awful lot, a very quick turnover. I suspect a lot of record labels signed up everybody, let them make a record, and then sacked 95% of them when nobody bought it, or only 50 people or whatever. "We haven't got the new Clash here, get rid of them and find something else!"
I can't remember it lasting a long time, at a grass roots level. The Electric Circus went through the punk thing, but closed within a year of The Stranglers being there. I think by '78 it was gone.
Joy Division played there as Warsaw, it was difficult for them to get gigs anywhere else, apparently, which seems absurd now, but that's the way that the music industry works - don't take any chances, only promote someone who somebody else tells you is any good, and whatever you do, don't try anything new! So was punk seen just as a fashion by some people?
It was, definitely. People dressed that way as it was what you were seen to do, but they couldn't tell you Elvis Costello from Joe Strummer. They'd turn up at a party in a ripped binliner and a safety pin through the nose and suchlike.
Unlike the hippy thing that lingered on into the early '70s, where everyone had long hair and flairs, there was never that point with punk that it took over completely. It was always a minority thing. It never took the majority of people along with it. It took quite a few people, but it never became the out and out look. I'm sure if you asked anyone at the time if people 35 years on would have had any interest in punk, they would've said, "No." It was almost as though people knew it was going to be an ephemeral thing. You can only contain rage for a certain amount of time, after which you can't be ranting and raving on your fifth album. The difference between London Calling and The Clash's first album is so massive that you struggle to believe it's the same band really.
Do you remember the release of those records?
I don't, but what I do remember is people queueing to get albums, but that wasn't any more specific for a Clash or Jam album as an Elton John album. It's just the way it was. Fans go out and buy records.
There was a lot of experimentation with the physical format though, bright blue vinyl, things like that. Historically they'd been flat, black and boring, punk was for the first time saying, "Why can't my vinyl be blue or green or purple?" or whatever. I think there's a lot made of the iconography and the visual style of punk nowadays, that in its day completely passed me by. There was the torn up picture of The Queen, something that everybody recognised and you looked at it and thought, "That's really clever!" But I don't think many people got into a detailed discussion over the detail of the cover of X-Ray Spex's new thing. I suspect there's an awful lot that happens post event, where people have gone back and analysed it, not that it wasn't there at the time, but people weren't particularly looking at the time.
I guess the thing that the media latched onto was the swearing...
... And the gob, did you ever gob at anyone? ...
... No, although I did get gobbed on, yeah. The Stranglers were doing it, gobbing onto the audience from the stage, and the audience were doing it back. I thought, "Why?" It was something that was picked up on because it was disgusting, and the swearing as well, more than any message, "No future, no job, no chance, I'm at a dead end, what we gonna do? Have a riot!" You know? Messages coming out of the lyrics were ignored. There was only a relatively small political end to it as well. Most of the bands just played fast music. The Damned didn't play anything remotely political to begin with, it was just, "We're gonna play really fast!!!" That's the whole thing, because music up to now has been really slow and dull and boring, and we're gonna do our own thing! That's rock and roll.
Mark is an environmental scientist and organiser of Norwich Greenpeace. For more of their work, check: http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/groups/norfolk
What was your first meeting with what became known as punk?
It was while I was at Manchester University. I was there from ’75-’78, so that covers the key era. At the end of ’76, or it might’ve been ’75, I went to the faculty of architects who had a big Christmas Ball, and a group of half a dozen of us got in. There was a band playing called Slaughter and The Dogs, and five out of six of us thought they were utterly dreadful, because they were completely different. At the time, for a bit of background, I was listening to Genesis and Steely Dan, things like that, so it was very musical, etc, this lot was a bit of a thrash, so it was totally different.
That was the first live experience of punk, and I can’t say it made me think, “Wow, this is brilliant!” Slaughter and The Dogs had a couple of vaguely successful records, but were never very big. It’s difficult to know in hindsight whether they were actually rubbish or if what they were doing was so alien to what I was used to.
It’s a fine line between clever and stupid.
Yeah. I can remember, if you like, my change of tune coming around about the time of being back home during a break, when The Jam released In The City and thinking, “That is brilliant. I really like that!” I suppose that’s the thing I remember thinking. The next term, there was a place in Manchester called The Electric Circus, where all of the punk bands played and fairly soon after that I remember going to see The Stranglers play. I’d heard Grip, which was out about the same time as In The City, and liked both songs. I’d been going to a steady stream of gigs at the Students Union, so I was in the habit, and there were a couple of us who went to pretty much every gig, so it was quite natural for us to go and investigate The Stranglers. That was the first punk gig that I chose to go to.
What did it sound like?
The Stranglers were brilliant live. It was completely new, a complete contrast to anything I'd been to before because it wasn't, looking back, middle of the road soft rock. It was a completely unique audience as well. There were a few students there, but it was basically a rough end of Manchester audience. I remember really liking that.
One of the things that sticks in my memory was, "Why am I walking so weirdly?" looking down at my foot and realising I'd got this humungous lump of glue stuck to the bottom of my shoe. The habit of sniffing glue was a cheap way of getting high, so somebody had spilt their can of Evostick onto the floor and I'd got stuck to it. "Ah, that's why I'm limping!" Very strange.
How did you get more involved?
I started buying the albums, going to more gigs. I went to see The Jam a couple of times. The first one was at Salford Uni, the other a bigger event, I think at The Apollo. It's probably fair to say that The Jam were my favourite. The first occasion was also where I first saw The Clash, when they were touring the first album. That show wasn't what I expected. I was in the 10th row, and everybody just trashed the first 20 rows of seats. They were only little wooden seats, they were jumping on them so they could smash them so that they'd got more room to move around. That was an interesting experience.
Did you participate in those antics?
I did a bit of leaping, but not a lot of trashing.
Did you have the punk 'look'?
No, I didn't. I never cut my hair short. I had quite long hair in those days, so I never adopted a punk 'look', even though by that stage most of what I was listening to would be categorized as punk, or new wave. It never really occurred to me to do it. For me it was all about listening to the music and going to the gigs, rather than for a lot of people it was a lifestyle thing. For me it wasn't a lifestyle thing. I was a university student studying economics, planning on getting a job at the end of the process. It was nothing to do with, "I'm a dead end kid, I'm never gonna get a job, it doesn't matter what I look like," or anything.
Did you get in any trouble with the punks who dressed in that style?
No, we didn't. There was no hostility, I suspect the hardcore punks you see on all the clips actually were a minority of the people who went to see bands. The Apollo was quite a big venue, I don't have any memory of it being masses and masses of punks. There was a punk contingent, and a contingent of people like me who liked punk, went to the gigs, but didn't look punk.
The Electric Circus was different because that was a much smaller venue. It was more like 80% of people there looked like punks, were already living the punk lifestyle. We were very much the odd ones out! There were different looks, anyway.
So how did The Clash affect you?
The Clash gig was fascinating. They were much more high energy than The Stranglers, much rawer. They actually moved about and put on a show, while The Stranglers just stood there.
What other gigs did you goto next?
I can't remember where the next Clash gig was, I think the Free Trade Hall. Either there or The Palace, it was a bigger gig. The venues had got security in by this time and realised that if you're going to have a punk gig in a seated venue - get proper security. Nowadays they've got barriers and systems worked out, gaps between the audience and the stage. You didn't have that then, you just had: Stage - Band. Literally leaning over the edge of the stage. It was much more close-up. The stages weren't that high, The Apollo was, but not The Electric Circus, so you were really close up to the people you were going to see, within reach of the band.
One thing that strikes me now is that if you didn't see the first round of gigs, by the second round they were all in much bigger venues. It took off very quickly. The first Jam gig was at Salford University, the second one at the Free Trade Hall, a much bigger venue.
How did things change?
You stepped up by going to The Apollo. They were almost immediately taken out of the intimacy, out of the small venues where punk started. Bands leapt away from that very quickly.
Did bands deliberately try to connect with the audience when they played?
I think that they tried to connect ith an audience, certainly better than the kinds of bands that'd gone before them. The second time I saw The Clash, they were touring the second album, they were big by then, and there were a number of venues that were closed off to punk. The grass roots thing did die away relatively quickly and the likes of The Clash, Jam and Stranglers went on to be superstar big bands filling big arenas, and everybody else just got left behind. They were there for a little while after, but eventually the whole thing changed. By the end of the '70s, 1980, you've got bands like Joy Division and other bands coming along, doing other things. Siouxsie and The Banshees was slightly later on. I saw her, she was doing interesting things.
Were there any bands that you now think, "I wonder whatever happened to them?"
I can't remember any. I can remember liking The Ruts, they had a couple of very good singles, got a strong suspicion that their singer killed himself, which was the end of them. There was an awful lot, a very quick turnover. I suspect a lot of record labels signed up everybody, let them make a record, and then sacked 95% of them when nobody bought it, or only 50 people or whatever. "We haven't got the new Clash here, get rid of them and find something else!"
I can't remember it lasting a long time, at a grass roots level. The Electric Circus went through the punk thing, but closed within a year of The Stranglers being there. I think by '78 it was gone.
Joy Division played there as Warsaw, it was difficult for them to get gigs anywhere else, apparently, which seems absurd now, but that's the way that the music industry works - don't take any chances, only promote someone who somebody else tells you is any good, and whatever you do, don't try anything new! So was punk seen just as a fashion by some people?
It was, definitely. People dressed that way as it was what you were seen to do, but they couldn't tell you Elvis Costello from Joe Strummer. They'd turn up at a party in a ripped binliner and a safety pin through the nose and suchlike.
Unlike the hippy thing that lingered on into the early '70s, where everyone had long hair and flairs, there was never that point with punk that it took over completely. It was always a minority thing. It never took the majority of people along with it. It took quite a few people, but it never became the out and out look. I'm sure if you asked anyone at the time if people 35 years on would have had any interest in punk, they would've said, "No." It was almost as though people knew it was going to be an ephemeral thing. You can only contain rage for a certain amount of time, after which you can't be ranting and raving on your fifth album. The difference between London Calling and The Clash's first album is so massive that you struggle to believe it's the same band really.
Do you remember the release of those records?
I don't, but what I do remember is people queueing to get albums, but that wasn't any more specific for a Clash or Jam album as an Elton John album. It's just the way it was. Fans go out and buy records.
There was a lot of experimentation with the physical format though, bright blue vinyl, things like that. Historically they'd been flat, black and boring, punk was for the first time saying, "Why can't my vinyl be blue or green or purple?" or whatever. I think there's a lot made of the iconography and the visual style of punk nowadays, that in its day completely passed me by. There was the torn up picture of The Queen, something that everybody recognised and you looked at it and thought, "That's really clever!" But I don't think many people got into a detailed discussion over the detail of the cover of X-Ray Spex's new thing. I suspect there's an awful lot that happens post event, where people have gone back and analysed it, not that it wasn't there at the time, but people weren't particularly looking at the time.
I guess the thing that the media latched onto was the swearing...
... And the gob, did you ever gob at anyone? ...
... No, although I did get gobbed on, yeah. The Stranglers were doing it, gobbing onto the audience from the stage, and the audience were doing it back. I thought, "Why?" It was something that was picked up on because it was disgusting, and the swearing as well, more than any message, "No future, no job, no chance, I'm at a dead end, what we gonna do? Have a riot!" You know? Messages coming out of the lyrics were ignored. There was only a relatively small political end to it as well. Most of the bands just played fast music. The Damned didn't play anything remotely political to begin with, it was just, "We're gonna play really fast!!!" That's the whole thing, because music up to now has been really slow and dull and boring, and we're gonna do our own thing! That's rock and roll.
Mark is an environmental scientist and organiser of Norwich Greenpeace. For more of their work, check: http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/groups/norfolk
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